James Patrick: How to get your work published

Michael Der  0:29  
Okay, folks, welcome to another episode of entrepreneurs. My incredible guest today is one of my favorite professionals to talk to. He's an entrepreneur, business coach and fitness photographer with over 500 magazine covers to his credit, and today we get to talk to him about the nuances of building awareness so that we can get our content published by the clients we want to work with. You can view his work at James patrick.com, and on Instagram at Jay Patrick photo. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome the wonderful James Patrick to the program. James, thank you for your time, brother. It's great to have you.

James Patrick  0:58  
Thank you so much Michael, truly appreciate and ARTrepreneurs, I freaking love that title.

Michael Der  1:03  
you like it, right? 

James Patrick  1:04  
I do. Because it you know, most of my work is in the health and fitness space. And I call all my clients fit printers. So to have this now in the in the realm of art and creativity, where entrepreneur, it really kind of summarizes what we do. Because we're more than just artists, we're more than just photographers, we are doing this with the intention of trying to not just make an impact, but build a business that makes an impact. So super excited that we can have this chat. 

Michael Der  1:28  
Absolutely, and I 100% agree with you. That's the entire reason why I wanted this to be the title. It was inclusive, it was also pluralized for that specific purpose. And I and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention your podcast as well to my audience, because it has been so invaluable to me in my journey in terms of pursuing entrepreneur life. And it's one of the inspirations behind the creation of this show. So it is called Beyond the image with James Patrick, it's all about going past the surface level of your personal and professional trajectory. It's just a fantastic podcast. So I want to say thank you for, for being such a good example of how to do it the right way. And giving back to aspiring entrepreneurs out there. 

James Patrick  2:06  
You know, I will accept that compliment because I love flattery. So thanks so much. It's you know, it is so fun to do this, I'm sure you can attest to this too, because the great thing about podcasting is I mean, obviously, we're creating content for our listeners for for our community to try to help them in their trajectory. But you know, Michael, the thing that I appreciate so much about you is like myself, you have such a curious mindset. And so we get to sit down, and we get to just ask the questions that are at the front of our mind as we're navigating our own journeys. And guess what, they're the same questions that most of our audience has as well. 

Michael Der  2:41  
That's right. Yeah, no, it's both partially selfish and self serving, as well as altruistic for the people out there. And there's, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. It kind of works for both. So so we'll kind of kick this off, as someone who's cut his teeth on the ground floor as a second photographer with his local newspaper, to now holding the distinction of being a photographer with over 500 magazine covers, which is absolutely insane. I think you're uniquely qualified to talk about what works and what doesn't, when it comes to getting your work published. And, James, if I may, I'd like to start off with mindset first, because with without the foundation of a successful mindset, I believe everything else can just be chalked up to like super the day tips that's gonna go in one ear and out the other. So is there an overarching principle or an attitude or mentality that we need to embed right now, before we get into the how tos of getting published?

James Patrick  3:37  
 You know, what I would lead with is you need to start before you think you're ready. And the reason I say that is one of the biggest problems that this isn't just in the in the photography industry, but I absolutely see it in the photography industry, as I see it in so many similar industries, which is, we hold back on our work, we hold back on our ideas, and we hold back from sharing what we do to the people we need to share it with. Because you know, it's not perfect yet I need to rework this a little bit. I need to, I need to perfect it. And I will tell you that an imperfect portfolio that is pitched will be infinitely more successful than the perfect portfolio that's never shown to anyone. And with that, I think about a completely other goal that I had, which was to write this book. Maybe 15 years ago, I had this idea to write a book and I sat down I started writing it and my idea was so good. And I'm not I'm not just saying that Michael to blow smoke up my own butt, but right really, I had a really good idea for this book. It was a type of marketing that wasn't being done within my industry. And I started working on this book. And then after a few weeks, I put the book on my shelf and I was like now I'll look back at that, you know, and then a few weeks later, I took it down, worked out a little more. I kept trying to perfect it. Eventually the book came out. I remember it sitting on my desk back when I worked in my marketing job. And the problem was when I looked at the book

James Patrick  5:00  
My name wasn't on the cover. And the reason my name was not on that covers because the book I was working on was still on my shelf, I never finished it never launched it, someone launched the idea first. Now, when I say they launched it first, I was working on mine for over two years. Okay, so someone beat me to it, they got it out. And even though I could argue that, oh, my idea was better Guess what? They went to market first. So whatever you're working on now, realize that it's okay, if it's not perfect, the only thing that gets you closer to perfection is to put your work your message in front of someone else's eyes into someone else's hands. That's what gives you the feedback. So you know how to refine your work over time to start to develop the work that is going to get into whatever it is you want to do, be it get published, grow your business, get more clients, whatever it is in the impact you want to have. 

Michael Der  5:52  
That reminds me of this book that I read called Big Magic. Have you read that by Elizabeth Gilbert? 

James Patrick  5:57  
No, I'm gonna write it down. 

Michael Der  5:58  
Okay. She cites in that book, a very similar story about how she had a story a an actual, fictional story that was then launched by somebody else, just before hers, in it was all a matter of timing. And it was uncanny about like how the nuances of a fictional story, all the characters in the back story, were almost identical. But it just reminded me about that, that sense of initiative of being proactive of what you're talking about, to to launch before you feel like you're ready, because you're always going to find insecurities and imperfections before you launch. That's never gonna go away. 

James Patrick  6:37  
Yeah. Do you think I when I look back at my earliest work, do you think I look at like, man, I was really good. No, no, no, I do not. You know, you said I've shot 500 covers, I don't know, if I started liking until maybe 200 covers in I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. But it The point is still there like you we are always evolving, we're always improving. But we cannot work and live in a silo, we have to incorporate others into this journey with us if we want to leave that impact. And I know we're talking so much about media, and part of it is you have to get your work in front of someone else, even if they might not like it. And that's okay. Because just because they don't like your work right now, doesn't mean they're not always going to like your work. And just because they don't see a fit for your work, doesn't mean they don't like you or don't approve of you. So stop putting your own self-worth on whether or not your work is getting picked up somewhere. 

Michael Der  7:30  
Yeah, it's hard to break that perfectionist mindset. But it's, it's a very, it's a great way to do it. And I'd like to peel back the curtain on your experience as a photo editor for just a minute because I think this will really help those who have no working experience, either as an editor or even for an editor in identifying the difference between, let's say, a good image and a valuable image or a usable image. Can you tell me the difference between the two? And what you discovered, through your time as an editor about course-correcting your own trajectory? 

James Patrick  8:00  
Hmm, that is such a good question. So you know, I was a photo editor three times, twice for newspapers and once for a magazine. And when it came to hiring photographers, the thing that I looked at the most was a definitive style. And even if it was still being cooked a little bit, it was still marinating a little bit, but I saw the potential of assault, I would hire that over technical capabilities. 10 times out of 10. I remember I heard this one photographer for this magazine I was overseeing. And she had this travel portfolio that just took my breath away. It was so emotional and so evocative and so powerful. And I had asked her, you know, just kind of on the cuff after I'd given her the job. I'm like, oh, by the way, what gear do you use? You know, I was just talking shop. And she's like, Oh, I don't I don't even have a camera. Wait, what?

James Patrick  8:57  
Oh, how did you make these and she's like, oh, that just got a disposable camera. I'm like, stop, stop. You shot these on a 35-millimeter disposable camera like a like a Kodak. And she's like, yeah, I'm like, Alright, you're still hired. And now I'm going to show you how to use a camera. We have staff cameras, I'm going to show you how to use them. I hired based on the style. So when you go in, it doesn't matter what you use, it matters what you're trying to communicate. And her portfolio just had such a distinct style behind it. And it's something that I've tried to cultivate in my own work. I had this mentor who told me that we live and die based on our style. Now your style, you know, for listeners of this show, it is everything. It's not just the images you take. It's not just your subject matter. It's how you see your subject matter. It's how you try to capture your subject matter. It's the lights you use. It's the angle use. It's the competition composition you use. It's the editing process that you have, but also also, it's you. It's your energy. It's what you're like on set. It's the

Unknown Speaker  9:59  
team that you work with, it's, it's the vibe or the narrative on your social media, all of it is your style, it is your brand. And if you are trying to copy someone else's style, or copy someone else's brand, even if it's just emulation, you're going to really struggle when it comes to standing out. But if you try to hone in on your style, what makes your work different or unique? That's what's going to get it to stand out. So you know, when it came to like honing in on what images work versus what images do not work? It's interesting you ask that because it's a question I had to ask myself so often. And I don't know, if I have a clear answer. It's, it's a definition I've really struggled to unpack. But I just know when something jumps at me, and I know when something does not jump at me. And it's, it's, it's all the pieces is the subject, it's their energy, it's the light, it's the composition, it's the eye contact with the camera, it's the mood, it's, it is the feeling, I get that was communicated to me through that image. And when that's done, and all those pieces are there, I don't care about the technique behind it. I feel like there's this gamut. And, you know, I've met photographers who are so heavily technical, and they will quote for me the inverse square law. And they, you know, like, I have a photographer friend, and he always has with him his color checker passport in his back pocket. And his photos are technically perfect. They're technically perfect every single time. But I would not say that the most creative photos, but they are technically perfect. Okay, then you have photographers at the other end of the spectrum, who, why is the light there because it feels right to put it there. And maybe I want this a little overexposed. And maybe I want this to be a little bit warmer in the color spectrum versus cooler in the color spectrum. Why? Because that's the story that they're trying to communicate. That's the narrative that they're trying to push forward. And it's part of the brand that they're trying to communicate. So I think finding your place on that spectrum is part of finding your style. 

Michael Der  12:16  
And I'm so happy that you even mentioned, the personal traits that you need as well. And my own hopeful self-narrative, I believe how you work should be just as important as the quality of your work. And I know that's never going to be exactly even you need to produce the quality to get the job that you want, first and foremost. But could you touch on the importance of either professionalism or relationship building and building that trust with your clients so that you can maintain long term relationships with clients? Because I think that might be what separates a short career from a long one.

James Patrick  12:46  
It's a matter of Do you want to have a transactional business? Or do you want to have a business that lasts? And what we've seen over the last year, is that transactional businesses are the ones struggling, okay, relational businesses, where you develop strong, lasting relationships with your clients. Those are the ones that will get brands and businesses to float even in times of recession. So when I think about relationships, I think about where my clients are, where they want to go, and what I can do to bridge that gap. Now, does that mean that my services have evolved over the years? You bet? Absolutely. My Services evolved over the years, because what my clients needed 20 years ago, is not what they need today. So I've had to adapt, and I've had to evolve. And I'm also seeing new shifts within our industry that are making me question the services I'm providing today. And if what I'm providing today is what I need to be providing in one year or two years, okay? It is ever-evolving. I think as entrepreneurs, we have a choice. We can be the entrepreneurs who stand at the edge of the world, waving our arms, saying I wish things would go back to the way they used to be. Or we can be the entrepreneurs who are talking to our clients, building great relationships with them, seeing what they need. And what they need is very simple. It's where they are now. It's where they want to go and what will bridge that gap. Being those entrepreneurs, that's what's going to keep us adapting, as industries change adapting as economies evolve, adapting as technology shifts. I mean, I've been in this long enough that when I got started, there was a big transition from film to digital. And there's so many photographers who said, You know what?

James Patrick  14:30  
real professionals will never use digital. Well, what happened consumer demand wanted digital assets. And unless you jumped on board, you were left behind. I saw the same thing with social media, real clients, they said, we'll never want to hire photographers off MySpace or Facebook or you know, at the time as MySpace, they'll never do that. They're too savvy. They're too professional to play in the mud with these kids. Well, what happened? consumer demand dictates

James Patrick  15:00  
We want to find the people we want to work with leveraging these platforms. And I saw again in 2008, during the recession we had there were so many photographers were crossing their arms getting so pissed off that young photographers were coming into the industry, and I'd sit in meetings with them. And I'd be getting so frustrated because all these old curmudgeon photographers are saying, you know, these young, these young photographers are ruining the industry. They're giving away everything. They don't know anything about usage rights, they're giving away all the rights to their photos. They're they're doing photos and videos, what are they thinking they should be charging more for that? They're taking money away from us? Because now clients expect us to do that, too? No, you got it backwards. This is important that photographers are not changing the industry. The clients are changing the industry. What the clients expect is what is changing the industry. So once again, we have a choice, do we adapt and evolve to what our clients need? And that's the core of developing a great relationship is what our clients need? Or do we cross our arms and say, No, I want to charge a lot for the way things were done 20 years ago, and pretend it's so gonna float? Yes, it's not gonna work. So, you know, when we look at our business, it is a relational business. Now, when I look at my style, most of my work is in health, fitness and sports. If I were to compete, let's say, on a fashion photoshoot, and I had to compete against two other photographers, chances are, I'm losing that project. Why? Because I don't really have you know, 500 covers, I think maybe five of them. 1% had been fashion covers, it doesn't happen often. Unless I have a relationship. If I have a relationship with that person, I'm winning 90% of the time. Okay, now let's look at Fitness. If I if someone's trying to go up against me to shoot a fitness cover, good luck, I've shot 500 of them, or 490. I've shot that many of them, you have a long way to catch up, right? Unless you have the relationship in which case, I'm going to lose 100% of the time. So when we think about that, we think the following thing and this was told to me is beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder. And that will answer your question anytime you wonder, well, how did that person get hired? Well, beauties in the eye of the checkbook holder. The person writing the check is the one who determines what they need, what they want, and what is going to help them. And oftentimes, it's not the best photographer, the most technically savvy photographer, even the most creative photographer, it's the one they like and trust. So your job is to build more relationships. And as you improve your network, you will improve your net worth. 

Michael Der  17:31  
Hmm, that's beautiful. The whole notion of relationships versus transactions and how you view it, I think.

Michael Der  17:39  
I can't remember who said it might have been Pat Flynn, where it's no longer b2b or b2c, it's p2p, it's person to person, that's what you need to be focusing on in terms of marketing. And that goes for individual brands, as well as you know, big businesses. I want to get your advice on niching down, because I know for many, and by many I mean me. It's, it's easier said then done. And I think it's because I struggled to reconcile whether I should listen to the marketplace and keeping every door open or instead of looking to create a niche market that I can potentially be a leader in and follow that one path with a little bit more specificity, a little bit more focus. Could you walk creative like me through this kind of mental negotiation? 

James Patrick  18:20  
The fear is that if I hone in too much on one thing, I'm not going to be as appealing and other things. But the truth is, is once again, what are clients looking for? Are they looking for generalists? Are they looking for specialists, the answers, they're looking for specialists. So when I struggled in my photography career, it's when I tried to shoot everything. I was shooting architecture, I was shooting fashion, I was shooting portraiture, I was shooting actor headshots, I was shooting commercial work. I was photographing events and families and photographing baby. I mean, anything that I could get in front of my lens, I was taking my photo, because I was trying to be all things to all people and be the jack of all trades. Oh, I can do that. Oh, James can do that. But here's the thing. As we are going into that recession back in 2008, and you're a photo editor, you're a client, you have a limited budget. Are you going to hire the person who could probably do it or the person that you know, unequivocally can do it? Okay, so let's say food and beverage? Am I going to win that food and beverage job when someone else specializes in food and beverage? No, I'm not going to wait. Okay. Am I going to win that fashion campaign when someone else specializes in fashion? No, I'm not going to win it. So my business was at a point where I was ready to put my camera away. Because I was losing all my clients. I mean, clients are going out of business. And yeah, and I'm struggling to really scrape together work and I'm looking I'm like, Well, at the time, I also had a job in marketing. So I'm like, Well, I guess I'll just work in marketing for the rest of my life that I guess is what my future is going to entail. But something about the love of the work I was doing kept me so shooting but I said you know what, let me just get focused at that point.

James Patrick  20:00  
I had nothing left to lose. So let me just get focused, let me just do one thing, but let me do it perfectly. And really just drive it home that this is my zone of genius. And at the time 2008 note with a fitness photography was not really a genre, it was just a bubbling idea. And I kept reading in business magazines that the health and fitness industry is going to erupt. I'm like, well, that's probably a good sign. So I started to build a book just around sports and fitness work. And I started to get focused now. So this was the first benefit, I was able to get focused on who I wanted to work with. And I would look in my area. So what are the magazines in Tucson, which is where I was living at the time? What are the magazines in Arizona, that would really feature health, fitness and sports? What are the ad agencies that are doing sports campaigns or fitness campaigns or health and wellness campaigns? What are the companies based here in Arizona, and I and I kept it local at first, that really do Fitness, Health and sports. And I was I made this massive list. I started picking up the phone and calling them and saying Hi, my name is James Patrick. I'm an Arizona photographer. I have been building a book around sports and fitness. I would love to share it with you to see if the work resonates. And maybe we can do some work together. And slowly but surely, I started getting some Yeah, sure. Come on in. Or Yeah, sure. Email, email your portfolio over. Now, when I would send the portfolio over, I'm not showing, oh, here, look, here's a bunch of buildings I photographed or here's, you know, some commercial portraits I've done. No, I'm only showing the work that is directly in line with what that client would hire. Yeah. So now I'm getting focused on what I'm showing them. So I've curated a very specific portfolio. Then I started to book some work. Then I said, Okay, well, let's take that outside of Arizona, let's look into the regional Southwest, then let's look into the United States, then let's look International. And piece by piece. It grew and grew and grew, because I knew what I was doing. I knew the clients I needed to work with. So now I'm being proactive versus reactive. I'm focused on building those relationships. And sometimes building those relationships does not mean give me a job right now, sometimes it means well, Hey, keep me in mind, put me on deck. You know, if you can't use me right now, no worries, let me know if you ever have an opening. And let's just stay in touch. And let's just get to know each other, and build that trust and build that rapport. There have been clients I courted for years, before I ever got my first opportunity with them. But all of a sudden, my work started to explode to the point where within a year, I'm quitting my marketing job. I'm walking away from that corporate safe paycheck, because my photo business has more than doubled my full-time income and

James Patrick  22:50  
to address the fear. Well, does that mean I don't get booked for other work? Actually, no, it doesn't. Next week, I'm shooting an architecture project. But if you go to my website, you're not really going to find a lot of architecture. Over the next month or two, I just got booked on three large commercial portrait projects that are happening over the course of several weeks. These are really big projects for our company. But you're not going to see me posting a lot about I won't talk a lot about because it's not within my genre. But I'm still getting booked for why relationships, why don't get booked for that architecture, project relationships, I know the company for 10 years. Okay? But when it comes to sports and fitness, that's where I am very competitive. And it's hard to compete with me because there's not a lot of people who have the backlog of work or specialize in what I've specialized in for as long as I've done it. So what is it that you're in? This is for your listeners? What is it that you're doing? What are the subjects you're working with? Is there a certain style that you're approaching this with? Is there a certain vibe or energy that you bring that no one else brings? This is not about emulating others this is about peeling back and tapping into what makes you and your work different from anyone else. Because this is what you want is the following statement. I had an art director who worked with me for 10 years at a publication. And their exact words are I cannot imagine working with another photographer. That is the place you want to get to with your clients that they cannot fathom working with someone else because they trust you more than anyone else. 

Michael Der  24:20  
That's a great spot to get to. You mentioned that many of your cover photos. Were not actually what paid the bills, but what kind of opened the doors for more other profitable jobs? Can you walk us through that relationship of leveraging visibility to attain the higher-paying jobs? And then what do you do with those jobs? You mentioned that you don't really showcase the necessarily the commercial architecture portfolio, but you still might take them. Walk me through that. 

James Patrick  24:47  
When I look at whether I say yes or no to a project, I'm looking at three things. The first thing I look at is what is the financial value of this project. So really, that just comes down to how much am I getting?

James Patrick  25:00  
paid for this. Okay, the next thing I look at is the creative value of this, which is how much creative control Am I going to have? And really, for me, creative control is directly equivalent to how much fun Am I going to have, right? And I'll be honest, those two are inversely related. The more money I make, the less fun I have. And the less money I make, the more fun I have. Why, you know, kind of just nature of it. I did a project that I won't mention, I won't mention the company name. But let's just say one of the biggest online retailers, top three biggest online retailers. And it was eight hours of me photographing people putting something in a box or taking it out of a box for eight hours. It was very, very boring. It was not creative. It was not that interesting. But that one project was like a quarter's budget for the year. Okay, so it was a really well-paid project. Okay. So those are the first two things that look at now. Are there projects that I will say no to, because maybe the financing isn't there? And maybe the creativity, isn't there? Yeah, sure. I'll say no to projects if it's just not the right fit. But then there's another thing that I factor in, which is the opportunity scale. So the opportunity is what is my opportunity that I can have? If I say yes to this project. And the thing about the opportunity is, no one can tell you, if it's an opportunity, you have to decide that for yourself, alright. And chances are when someone tells you, this is a really big opportunity, it's probably not. But here's how this works is I was offered a project maybe eight years ago, and it was to photograph a first-round draft pick for the Arizona Cardinals for a magazine cover. So I'm talking to the publisher of the magazine and we get down to the brass tacks I'm like, Alright, so what's your budget on the photoshoot? They told me the budget, and I'm doing the math, and I'm probably going to lose money on this because I have to travel to it. I have to hire an assistant, I have to rent gear, and then my time, so I'm probably going to lose money on this. So I'm like, Alright, well, what are you looking for me to do? Like, well, we love your work. So you have full creative control, we just need a cover image shot on white, we're gonna shoot some stuff in a gym of him working out. But really you do you this is this is your project, and we trust your vision. So let's look at that, I get a first-round draft pick in front of my camera to do whatever I want for three hours. That's a pretty damn big opportunity for me, especially as I'm trying to build a portfolio and build a business shooting sports and fitness, while getting professional athletes in front of a camera is a big deal. So I say yes to the project. Even though the money is not there, I get full creative control. And it's a huge opportunity. Take the project, I lose money as predicted. But then I take those photos and I start marketing that work. And they become a cornerstone of my portfolio for when I'm going out to New York to meet with photo editors out there. And on top of that, because I own the copyright for those photos. And after the embargo ended on the magazine, I was able to resell those photos to another magazine got them published elsewhere. So I made a lot of money there, and was able to get me in the doors at some pretty big publications. Okay, so I turned it in, I leveraged it into an opportunity. Now if I didn't leverage it, like, you know, we've talked about I've shot a fair number of covers, but if I'm not out there marketing these covers, well guess what, in 30 days, another covers on a new stand. Right? Okay. 30 days. Yep. So if I'm not capitalizing on this, if I'm not marketing it, no one cares. No one cares if people's attention span is too short. So I just had a feature drop-in Yahoo Finance this week, as of recording. Now, congratulations, I have this feature in Yahoo Finance, it's going to drive some traffic to my website, that's great. But if I'm not talking about this, if I'm not posting about this, if I'm not advertising this, I'm not getting people to recognize this and to see what we did with this awesome feature, then it's wasted. So the idea of media exposure is a two-way thing you cannot just rely on Well, the workout published and it's just gonna change my world now. Getting your work published, or getting into media really is about three different things. One, you can say it's about vanity. Like there, there are publications I would love to work to, for no other reason than it would just be cool as hell to do. Right. And I got my list for that, like, oh, it'd be so cool as hell to shoot the cover of Sports Illustrated, right vanity. Okay. The next goal would be brand awareness and brand recognition. Okay, so if I could say, Look, I've shot for ESPN, I've shot for Sports Illustrated, I've shot for men's health and women's health. Like that's a lot of street cred that I could go on. And I could say that. Alright, then the third, which is what a lot of people want is lead generation, which is people see it, they go into your website and they end up hiring you so they become a qualified lead. So I will target different media outlets based off what those goals are. Okay, but also the last one lead generation, it's incumbent upon me to do a lot of the marketing as well, to engage my audience as much as possible.

James Patrick  30:00  
reminding them that Yeah, I did this look what I did. Here's a behind the scenes of what I did. Here's me in the bookstore, holding up my magazines, here's me giving away three copies of the magazine. So the first 10 people to share this out, or, hey, by the way, if you pick up your magazine and tag me and tag the magazine, I'll I'll buy three people one-year subscription of the magazine just as a social media contest to drive more awareness about it. So there are interesting ways that I can start to market something that really is also marketing me if that makes sense. 

Michael Der  30:31  
It does it. And I feel like I'm just quoting a bunch of people today. But it reminds me of another quote that I remember hearing, when information is cheap, attention becomes expensive. I don't know if you've heard that. But does that resonate with you? 

James Patrick  30:45  
So as information becomes cheap, attention becomes expensive. Yeah, it makes sense. Because, look, look at where we're at in 2021. We are in the age of the micro attention right now. Like people's attention is so minute Li finite, and it's our job to earn the attention of our audience. Because let's just say you grow a social media fund, congratulations. Just because we grew social media following doesn't mean people are paying attention to you. People are paying attention to when they're commenting and stuff when they're sharing your stuff when they're engaging with your content that is earning attention. Let's dive into this kind of difference between building awareness and then generating leads, I mean, can you can you kind of break that down a little bit in terms of the main differences between the two concepts. When I think about client acquisition, it really goes into three categories. category one is awareness. Awareness is most of our marketing, this is getting people to know we exist. So getting published will grow your awareness, getting your work into the media, running ads. Speaking at an event, being a guest on a podcast, all of it is to build awareness. Okay. But just because you get someone to know you exist in the world, doesn't mean you've earned their attention yet, you've just percolated their interest. From there, from the awareness phase, we go into the nurture phase, the nurture phase, think of it like the cooking phase. This is where we build trust and rapport with our audience. And the best way to build trust and rapport with our audience is by giving them great value. So this is content marketing. So Michael, you have a podcast, that's nurturing. You're nurturing your audience, this podcast is giving great content that has immense value to your audience. As you're nurturing your audience, I do it on my podcast. That's why I have a blog. That's why I have my Instagram. That's why I post behind the scenes. That's why I Interview magazine editors about how to get published. That's why I do my newsletter. It's why I have my phone number where I answer business questions. All of it is to nurture, I'm not selling in any of these. At this time, I'm getting people who are aware of me, to trust me to want to engage with me, I'm trying to earn their attention in the nurture phase. Okay. And that's why we do podcasts. That's why we do video features. That's what that's why we post on social media. It's not just a brag about our work. Yeah, we want to engage our audience and earn their attention from the nurture phase, then comes the conversion phase, which is your audience is ready to invest in you, they're ready to take that next step with you. But the thing that I will say is, as we've entered into 2021, that timeframe that so many have to be in that nurture cycle has gotten bigger, it has not gotten smaller, it's gotten bigger. And the reasons got bigger is because as consumers and I mean anyone from someone hiring you to do their headshots to someone who wants to buy your digital download to someone who's a magazine, or who wants to hire you to shoot a campaign for the for the publication, we need to be nurtured longer, because we have way too many options, we have way less time, our attention is way shorter. So it's going to take a lot longer for you to build that trust and report in that nurture phase. So that's what you need to be prepared for. But that's where we have most of the fun anyway, because that's where we get to do our creative content work. 

Michael Der  34:01  
It expands the notion of what content creation really is. I mean, I think photographers may be innately trained to just think that it's just images. But the other content that we're talking about that you're discussing in your the nurture phase, all goes into it as well. I am curious though, how do we nurture brands? How do we nurture magazine clients? What kind of value can we give them? That's not necessarily a full-fledged campaign shoot. So if I wanted to shoot for kayaking magazine, or backpacking magazine, how do I show the value to them and nurture that over time? 

James Patrick  34:38  
So The trick is, is you're not nurturing the brand? You're nurturing a person at the brand? That's the biggest difference. Okay. Yeah. And I want and I want to dive into that. But the one thing I will say because this light bulb just popped up as you were saying this is the worst thing we can do is to only show our work. If all we did on our social channels was just post photo after photo after photo of our work.

James Patrick  35:00  
That's not two-way communication that's just throwing stuff out and hoping people like it. Okay, two-way communications where you peel back that curtain a little bit, because when someone hires you, this is not you know, so I could say.

James Patrick  35:15  
Let's just say Fitness magazine hired me to shoot that cover. Well, actually, Tonya Schmidt hired me to shoot this cover. And Tanya Schmidt did not hire James Patrick photography, LLC. Tania Schmidt hire James Patrick, this is a human hiring a human. Okay, so the worst thing that we could do is to use all this leverage we're building to waste people's attention to only showcase our work, do I showcase merch, of course we showcase our work. But I do a lot of other stuff too, by tapping into what would add value to my audience. So most of my audience is health and fitness entrepreneurs. Well, what would add value to them, teaching them how to build marketing profit from brands, teaching them how to get published, teach them how to tell their story, teach them how to cultivate a brand worth nosing, teach them how to stand out online, without give a lot of value to them. So that's what I'm spending a lot of my time doing and all my platforms. Okay. But let's get back to your question. Now, you want to really push heavy into the media. So how do you give value? How do you nurture them? Well, you're not nurturing the company, you're nurturing the person at the company, your job is to build a relationship with that human being to earn their attention to build a relationship where you're building trust and rapport with them. Now, this is done in a multitude of ways. Do you do this through your social media? Yes, by showing not just the work you create, show the work great, but show the processing of how you create that work. Allow them to see behind the curtains to see the behind the scenes of your thought process of why you did what you did to understand who you are as a person. And why you shot the images that you shot while you wait edited the way you edit, allow them to get to know you invite them into your journey as an artist while still approaching them. Because this has to be two way You can't just build this all in assume that they see it, they find it and they want to work with you. But going directly to them being proactive to say, hey, Tanya, or, or Terry or pure Stan, you know, just those first three editors that came to my mind. I would love to share something with you, I just did this thing, I would love to share it with you. Okay, so like, for example, I mentioned that I just had that feature in Yahoo come out, I can promise you that I'm going to be sending that feature out to all the editors that I'm trying to work with right now. Why cuz I remind them that I'm still here. And then when I do like a really cool behind the scenes feature on a production, I'll maybe I'll write a blog about and film some video about, guess who is going to be sent to all the people I'm trying to get their attention. Okay, so our goal is to get attention, I'll share a story about attention, I was trying to get into this one magazine. So I thought every month I'm going to send them a new postcard of my work. So I made these really these nice, eight and a half by five and a half glossy postcards, each with a different image. And on the back, I would like hand write a nice note to the photo editor whose name was Tara, and about how I wanted to work with her. Okay. And every month on the first of the month, I'd send this postcard out to them. Now I'm nine months in and I've heard nothing from them. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I suck. My work sucks. They hate me. I'm not good enough. All the things that go through our mind, right? Yeah. But then one day, I'm on her Instagram, tars Instagram, and I'm scrolling through photos. And I see a photo of her working late at her at her desk one night, and on the wall behind her his big empty wall except for one thing, but it looked familiar. So I zoomed in on it. It was one of my postcards. And in fact, it was the first postcard I sent her. I checked my notes. It was the first postcard sent her now we're in September. I sent her this on January 1, I've heard nothing from her for nine months, what's going on? That was the light bulb. Oh, she doesn't need me yet. But I have her awareness. Right. So she's in the awareness. She was in the awareness phase. Now she's in the nurse face. So I just need to keep nurturing, and nurturing. And eventually she did end up hiring me. But they're not going to hire us. And this is important, they're not going to hire us when we need them to hire us. They're gonna hire us when they are ready to hire us. We just have to stay in front of them and grow that relationship to accelerate that as much as possible. 

Michael Der  39:27  
I really like that, again, it kind of goes back to that whole notion of are you going to make your business transactional or relational. And this kind of keeps editors, you know, art directors in the loop of the creative, which I think everybody gets excited about. Nobody gets excited about how much something is going to cost and you know what you want to charge for the next project. But when you keep people involved in the creative aspect, look at this new shoot and you're not trying to get anything from them. You're just sending them and keeping them in the loop of this is a new project that I just did. I just thought you'd be interested. That That to me is a great clarity.

Michael Der  40:00  
on nurturing with clients,

James Patrick  40:02  
 yeah, it's really just staying at the forefront of their attention. And sometimes it's gonna take a lot of time. And sometimes it's gonna work a lot faster than you think. Okay, but the difference is, and we'll get this takes us full circle to where we started, you got to start getting your work in front of them, okay, I've put my work in front of people, and it has not worked at times. That's okay. That's part of the process. I once was pitching to this photo agency, what I thought was going to be it was an in person pitch. So I thought it was gonna be just a one on one meeting with this photo agent, ended up being he decided that no, we're gonna do this communally. meaning there's 20 of you here, I'm going to put all of your work up on a giant screen. And I'm going to tell you what I like and don't like about your work in front of all your competitors. Talk about like turning the freaking heat on. Like, I started immediately, I started sweating. I'm like, Oh, this is not gonna go well. And there were photographers that he cut down pretty significantly. And I I barely remember what happened when I went up there. But a few a few beats stick out, maybe maybe I just have PTSD from it. But if you beat stick out, he was looking at my website, and he says, What do you specialize in? And I said, I specialize in sports and fitness, portfolios, and portraiture. He says, right. So why the hell is architecture on your website? I don't know. Do you like shooting events? No, I don't like shooting events. Why the hell is events on your website? That's a really good question, sir. And it got me to really hone in and refine what I was doing that was being published at the time. Yes, I'm being published at this time. But this guy made an example of me in front of everyone else, which is, yeah, this is just part of the process. And this feedback loop is actually really essential. Because by meeting with him I honed in my website's so much more made it so much better and so much more clear. So that when I went into the next meeting, which was maybe say, you know, a top publication, I went in with more confidence, I want more clarity, I went in with more of a direction. This is the evolution we have, and we keep peeling back layers and layer and layer. But it all starts with getting your work in front of someone had I never done that. Had I never, you know, met with anyone picked up the phone ever flown myself out to New York to sit down and with editors in New York, or run through the streets of Manhattan through a blizzard to try to meet with people, I never would have gotten that face to face interaction, or that feedback from professionals in this industry telling me, this is what is working. And this is what we'd suggest for you to do. Right and that right there. You can't You can't exchange that for the world that that is invaluable. 

Michael Der  42:46  
There are a lot of titles and there are a lot of roles in newspaper or magazine publications brand publications or you know, have editors like up the wazoo art directors DPS? How do you find the right person to talk to market to. 

James Patrick  42:58  
So it depends on the size of the publication, the first line you're going to look for is going to be photo editor. It I mean, it's it's the clearest, or you could say photo director, depending on the publication. But if a publication is big enough, I try to build a really, let's just say you have a photo director and you have two photo editors under them. I'm going to try to build a relationship with all three. Okay, gotcha. Yep, at some magazines. And, or even if they have a photo assistant, I'll try and build a relationship with the photo assistant. Because it just takes one person to trust you. Because the way it works is is when they have their staff meetings, and they sit around us Alright, what do we have on deck for the next issue? And people are sharing work? They're always looking for new work. And someone says, Oh, you know, I've been getting this work from James Patrick. And he puts it out on the table. The other people in that meeting, who you've also been trying to build a relationship, they're gonna say, yeah, you know what? I've gotten something from him too. But will you want to take a look at this, okay?

James Patrick  43:53  
It takes one person to be your inner champion in that in that publication. So I'm always going to look to the photo department first, in the absence of a photo department, I then look to the creative department, so creative director, art director. So I've worked with some magazines where they won't have a photo department, the creative director, art director oversees all the visual assets, including the photography, okay, so that would be my second angle. third angle would be if both of those are gone, which would be which, which is rare, but in the case that they are maybe a smaller magazine, I would go directly to an editor, the person who I'm not going to be going to as a publisher, and the reason I wouldn't be going to a publisher is because the publisher, more often than not, has no say and really no time to say anything about the editorial direction of the publication. I stick to the editorial side. So an example is I've worked with this one editor for 15 years, I developed a relationship with her, and she's the one because she's my inner champion. When I say enter, you know, she's my champion within whatever company she's at, and over 15 years, she's worked at three different magazines, but my relations

James Patrick  45:00  
With her has gone from each magazine. Right? So with the magazine she's at now she introduces me to who her creative director is and says, This is James. I've worked with him for X number of years and TSM. Great work, I think he'd be great for the publication. So it's that warm handoff, which is so helpful. But it all starts with relationships. And if I didn't have a relationship with her from the last magazine, the magazine before, that wouldn't have carried over to this new one. Right? 

Michael Der  45:25  
So what is a well curated pitch look like to you from like the first point of contact through the nurturing face to the follow up? Like, what does that pitch look like? And what would you classify as something that might stand out as this is going to be a successful process?

James Patrick  45:40  
And I go back to what I said, which is an imperfect pitch is always going to do better than a perfect pitch. Really, there is no perfect pitch short, is the is the first word that comes to mind short,

James Patrick  45:51  
get directly to the point, what are you wanting to do? So I separate a pitch from something where I'm trying to build a relationship or trying to get there, just get their attention. So like a pitch. When I think of pitching to a magazine, let's just say,

James Patrick  46:07  
let me try to think of a real example. So right now, I'm working on a photo set that I'm pitching to this sports magazine. Okay, so this, this client had hired me, we did all these great images together. And I want to get these published at this magazine that I'm familiar with. So the pitch is really straightforward. Cover consideration. You know, hey, name.

James Patrick  46:31  
I just shot these new images of this client. She is a top trending influencer on Instagram, she has a TV show dropping on this channel in the spring. Here's just a few stats about her. I've included a link to some of the photos we've did for your review and consideration. Let me know what you think. Okay, it's really short. Okay, now, what I'm trying to do in a specific pitch is say, this is exactly what I want you to do for your publication and why it matters for your audience. So here's a pitch. Let me I have my email here. Let me just pull up a pitch that I just sent. Okay, so the headline is article ideas for your website. Okay, because this is a print magazine, but I want to write an article for the website. Dear name, I know that you've been really focused on the overall growth in the business side of the health and wellness industry. Here are three ideas, I'd like to pitch for your website, these are articles that I can write top five digital strategies for fitness professionals to stand out how to create social media content in less time, and your four levers to increase revenue in your fitness business. Let me know if any of these work for your magazine. That's the pitch night, that's the entire pitch. Okay, now, if I wanted to send samples, I would not I wouldn't attach a lot of stuff because I don't want to bog down their inbox. But I'd hyperlink it in. So I might hyperlink in like, I have a PDF portfolio if I'm pitching to a brand new client, just like a it's like 10 pages PDFs of my work. And it's I think it's it's maybe three or four Meg's but even that I wouldn't attach it I would hyperlink it in, you can see my media kit, or you can see my portfolio here. And I would just hyperlink that link in and it's in a dropbox folder that they could preview my work, okay, so that I'm not like, because nothing and I've worked at the other side where you get that email, that's, you know, 20 Meg's that you just see clogging up your inbox, you know, as you're trying to wait for it to come through. That sucks. I don't want to be that person. So most things are hyperlinked in. So that's a direct pitch. Now, I do direct pitches, but at the same time is doing direct pitches. I'm also just doing general marketing, where I'm sending out maybe postcards of my work, where I am sending out like updates, like, Hey, I just landed this feature, just wanted to let you know about it, hope you're doing well. So this might be in a follow up. Because one pitch is never enough. And that's the key. One pitch is never enough, who usually never enough, because 95% of people send one pitch, they don't hear back. And then they think Well, it wasn't good enough. And they stopped pitching. But the reality is, is these people are just so incredibly busy. Maybe they never been sought me. They never even saw it or they saw it. They're like, Oh, look at this later, right. So I get pitches to be on my podcast, I get maybe a pitch a day to be on my podcast. And I don't really read any of them the day I get them. Where do they go? I have a folder in my inbox that says podcast guest pitches and I drag them immediately into that folder. Okay. And I look at them about once a month I sit down with my assistant and I say all right, who stands out to be on the podcast and we just go through and like Yes, yes. No, no, no, no. Yes, yes. Yes. And then we follow up with the ones who are yeses. Okay. So it might be weeks before I even look at it. Okay, and it's for me, it's just a snap judgment. does this fit my audience or does this not fit my audience, okay, but the ones that catch my attention more, the ones that follow up in two weeks or three weeks, okay. It can take eight to 12 points of contact and I'll say that again, it can take eight to 12 points.

James Patrick  50:00  
Contact before someone notices your pitch. And once they notice, they went from the awareness phase to the nurture phase. Now you have to nurture them.

Michael Der  50:10  
Wow, that's impressive. I mean, I think it does show that persistence is so much a part of what we do as as freelancers. as entrepreneurs, it's so important to maintain that awareness, because going back to that, quote, we talked about earlier, where information is cheap and attention is expensive, it just becomes so much more important to maintain that over a period of time. 

James Patrick  50:34  
Really, it's just a question of what's the worst that's going to happen? Right, but the worst that's going to happen is it's one of two things, either they don't respond, because they're busy, or they didn't see it. Or they say, not for us. And here's the thing had had that email, the one I just read off to you that I sent off, had they said, Not interested, no worries, let me know if there's anything else, or here's another idea to send that to you. That's just this is just the start, I'd rather get an email that said, we're not interested in this, then no email at all. Because if they responded, that means I got their attention now, because they might respond with, Oh, you know what this idea doesn't work. But now I can try to find what does work what they do need, once again, magazine editors, just like, you know, if you're, if you're selling to the john pub, they have a need that they want, your job is to figure out what that need is, fortunately, for this article, they responded back like, yeah, we can do a 600 word article for you. 

Michael Der  51:33  
I thought that was really interesting how you involved writing into the content creation, and a lot of photographers tend not to think about that. But that was another avenue that you could provide value to them. That was really cool. 

James Patrick  51:44  
My background is in journalism. And it's something that I still can do, I don't do it often, like in the sense that, you know, if I'm just working with a general Fitness magazine, they're not going to run business articles, which is what I would write would be a business article. But this publication was open to it. If I'm just doing photos only, I might come to them and say, here's an individual that I'm sending you, here's an idea or a creative concept, or Hey, by the way, I know you feature this section in your magazine, I have an idea for this section, what that shows is you've done your research, you know what they feature, and you're showing why your idea fits and why your idea would help the magazine? 

Michael Der  52:26  
Yeah, I feel like editors are always going to be hungry for content. And they're not always going to create it themselves. You know, that's what we're here for. And we kind of forget that, that we need to pitch them a concept that they can get on board with.

James Patrick  52:40  
 Oh, yeah, this comes back to I'm providing value for you by thinking of what would help your magazine by thinking of what your audience would need? What would resonate with your audience. And when you position it that way, you're positioning yourself as a partner, that this isn't about you, hey, I want to be published. Well, guess what? So does everyone else but to then say, No, no, no, I want to help create content for your publication, because this would be a value to your readers with this would really resonate with your readers. Now you're positioning yourself as a resource, not as someone who just wants something. How much do you think lead generation is research based? That's a lot of research. Yeah, in a pre quarantine world, I enjoyed going to bookstores and going through magazine racks and picking up magazines and seeing who may be shifted jobs or Oh, wow, Travis is now at this magazine versus that magazine. That's awesome that he made that change. And, oh, what are they featuring right now? And you get to see, you know, over time, the evolution of each of these titles and how they shift and what the creative direction is. And then you get to think creatively of how do I fit within this? I really enjoy that. It's one of my favorite things to do. 

Michael Der  53:47  
I want to kind of get your sense of 2020 2021. How is that impacted? publications or just in general? How is the industry changed? I mean, are you concerned with digital publications and reducing the opportunities of print? Does it even matter?

James Patrick  54:02  
Doesn't matter to me.

James Patrick  54:04  
And the reason I say that, like I grew up in the tactile print industry, so does it hurt me emotionally? When I see less magazines on shelves? Yeah, of course it does. There's something very cool about holding the printed work or, you know, I remember one time I had two magazine covers out on newsstands simultaneously, being able to go to any store and see both of them, put them side by side on the magazine rack that that really lit me up. That was cool. But let's go back to our goals. What are we trying to do? If it's just vanity? Well, then target only print magazines. Yeah, but if it's the second two options, which are validation and credibility, as well as lead generation, I get this same credibility and validation on an online feature, and I get more lead generation with the digital feature. Why do I get

James Patrick  55:00  
More. Because in a printed magazine, someone have to see the magazine, they have to see who shot, whatever it is, or who wrote whatever it is or who it's about. And then on a completely different device. So it's not like you can just touch the magazine and go somewhere on a completely different device, they have to go then look and say, Well, how can I look up this person later, and that may never happen. But on a digital feature, they just got to click my name. Now they're on my website. Now they're in my funnel, right? And it's better for my SEO, because it's a backlink into my website. So digital features are wildly beneficial, especially for lead generation that, that you don't really get in that tactile print environment. 

Michael Der  55:44  
We've got just a couple questions here. Before we wrap up, what would you tell your younger self? Like when you were starting out in this industry? Is there any piece of advice or counsel that you would give yourself so that you could avoid the pitfalls or the speed bumps that you ultimately had to go through?

James Patrick  55:59  
The biggest thing that comes to mind is to start before you think you're ready. I, you know, it took me set, I was at my marketing job for seven years before I walked away from it just to do photography, I probably could have done it after three. And the reason I did it was we get in our heads and we said well, I'm not good enough. You know, who am I to do this? I don't have enough experience. I have this belief that imposter syndrome can actually be a really good thing. And we've been looking at imposter syndrome all wrong. When we think about imposter syndrome, we think, well, I don't have enough experience or credibility or education or whatever it is, right? I don't have anyone's permission, no one's gonna think I'm good enough in doing this thing. So we call ourselves an imposter or we think of ourselves as imposter. But the reality is, is I had no idea how to be a photographer. until I started making pictures. I had no idea how to be an author, until I sat down and started writing and I wrote what became a best selling book, I had no idea how to be a podcast host until I started recording episodes, releasing them. And we got our podcast to hit top charts in more than a dozen countries. And I absolutely had no idea how to be a conference host until I said what would happen if we just gathered people together to share best practices and ideas. And we created conferences brought in over 1500 people. Okay, in all of these, I had no idea what I was doing when I started, which made me an imposter. But being an imposter just means we're figuring it out. So I want to like change that definition. imposter syndrome is a really good thing. imposter syndrome means we're figuring it out, when you're figuring it out, you give yourself the permission to do it with more intention. 

Michael Der  57:42  
I really like that. In this it's a good segue to the next question, which is, you know, if you had to choose a theme for your year, with that kind of be your 2021 theme for you. 

James Patrick  57:51  
Yeah, it's so funny, I would say I have to. So you know, we actually are moving forward with this entire imposter positioning, I had a shirt made that says imposter right on the shirt, and I wear the shirt. And in all my education videos that I've been doing, I'm wearing this imposter shirt, because I want I want to be clear, you do not need permission to do the work you want to do. But I'm doing this in case you think you do need this permission. That's why I'm doing it because now you've had the permission. So it's it's really something and it came up just randomly I was being interviewed on a podcast and it just randomly came up and came out of my mouth. And then I just zeroed in on that. The other thing that we've kind of set is our overall positioning for 2021. You know, which is a good way to think about theme is contrast. And the way I think about contrast is if everyone is over doing ABC, we need to be over in the corner doing XYZ. If everyone is running left, we need to run, right? Why? Because we want to forever remain unique and on our own platform in whatever industry we're in. So when like I talk about my photography, business, one of our statements is I don't take pictures. I make images that work. That's my that's my contrast. Anyone can take good looking pictures. I'll make images that work in my coaching practice. I'm not here to motivate and inspire you. I'm going to get you to go to work. Okay. So we contrast our positioning where Hey, all those other coaches, they want to motivate you, they want inspire you if that's what you want, great, go get it. But if you want marketing strategy, and if you want to get to work, I'm going to be over here. So we contrast ourselves to separate ourselves in the marketplace, but also to polarize our audience, so our audience has to make a choice. And once again, they graft on to what resonates with them the most. 

Michael Der  59:49  
James this was an absolute pleasure. I've got copious notes right now and I want to remind everybody where they can find you and your work. Instagram is Jay Patrick photo website is James patrick.com.

Michael Der  1:00:00  
The outstanding podcast which I mentioned before, is called Beyond the image with James Patrick and can be found on all the major directories like apple, Spotify, Google. And I also want to mention to photographers who are really looking to niche down in the fitness space to check out fit poziom.com. James, I know COVID may have altered things in 2020 of how the conferences might have been conducted. But can you brief us on the benefits of fit poziom for fitness photographers and what's in store for the future? 

James Patrick  1:00:23  
Absolutely, we have. We're so fortunate because we have so many fitness photographers or photographers are interested in building a brand in the fitness industry come to get involved in the conference. And really the predication is how do you build market and profit from a brand in the fitness industry, that includes photography. And what we do is we hone in on three things at the conference. One is information. We have such great information from so many great presenters on your marketing strategy, your sales opportunities, and ways to increase your revenue, but also increase your brand recognition awareness. The next thing we really lean in on is connection where you're going to connect with more people who honestly like we talked about like the best marketing's just go where your clients already are. You want to build a brand and fitness coach to the conference where there are hundreds of fitness entrepreneur SATs, like all you do is you stand around you just network with other conference goers. And guess what, in our digital conference that we did last year, because you know, we had to shift digital, people actually made more connections, we were having people messaging us saying that they made 40 to 50 new contacts and connections, that they never would have done it in person event because an in-person event, you get a little shy or nervous about going around, introduce yourself. But in a virtual event, when we put you in a breakout room and we force you to work with a complete stranger, you're going to get close pretty quick. Yeah. The third thing that we do that no other conference does, is we connect you directly with the media themselves, meaning every year at our conference, we partner with top publications, top podcasts, to give our attendees the opportunity to pitch themselves, pitch their brands, and pitch their work. And every year at our conference, dozens, dozens of attendees book projects, the day of the conference, the day of the conference. So we have people walk away with magazine cover features, we have people walk away with magazine features, we have people walk away with digital features, and the more photographers we get bringing their amazing work, the more opportunities that are going to be for artists to start booking some creative work as well.

Michael Der  1:02:24  
If that's not a call to action, I don't know what it is. That's, that's outstanding. James, I can't thank you enough for jumping on this show. You've been such a great supporter of my ventures here, which no matter how small they are. And every time I talk to you, my brain is like I mentioned is halfway between, like melting and getting geared up for action. So I thank you for that. Are there any last words you'd like to leave our audience any call to action? 

James Patrick  1:02:46  
You know, what, here's what I'll say is,

James Patrick  1:02:50  
if I, you know, you'd asked if I could go back in time and get myself advice, what I would do is I would take a podcast like this back with me, because what you're doing, Michael is you're giving the information to give your listeners clarity, in what is a very confusing industry in an industry where people are constantly unsure if they're taking the right step. So the work you're doing, I'm just so grateful for because your listeners are just so fortunate to have you putting out these great episodes. And just want to thank you so much for doing a show like this because had I had a show like this, I would have accelerated so much faster in my career. So just absolutely a huge round of applause and kudos to you. 

Michael Der  1:03:33  
Well, thank you. That means a lot. And I truly appreciate the time that you've spent today as well as before. So that is that's going to be my farewell cue for today. Entrepreneurs season one continues next week, folks, we launched every Friday with new content. My name is Michael Der thank you to James, Patrick, and everyone tuning in. Have a great day and see you next week.

Michael Der  1:03:54  
Thank you for listening to entrepreneurs. You've made it all the way to the end, and I can't thank you enough for being part of this amazing community. If there's any part of this episode that resonated with you if there's anything that you heard that might inspire you to action, please tag us on Instagram at entrepreneurs pod and let us know your favorite moment of this episode. And for those of you who have questions for the show and would like to hear it featured in a future episode, go to speak pipe comm slash entrepreneurs and record your question that will be answered either by myself or one of my expert guests. It can be about art, business or life. Just go to speak pipe.com slash entrepreneurs and record your question. Thank you again for tuning in and have a great rest of your day.